響應的文章

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=316&t=3455160&p=1

平常我並不參與任何討論區的討論,這不是為了要招攬生意,但是我認為這次是個發聲的好機會。現在市場上有非常多的Fitter供各為騎士選擇。我希望各位可以從此文章得到一些關於Bike Fitting跟Bike Sizing的不同看法,以及其內容的差異。

這篇文章基於我個人的觀點寫成,你可以認同或是否定。陳述內容皆基於現在市場狀況和科技。Bike Fitting一直都持續有科學上的研究跟開發,但是同樣也有相同比重的「藝術」成份存在。在這邊我不會採取任何激進的言論來維護我自己的觀點,同時我不會給予任何Fitting建議。

如果你需要任何Fitting建議,請您詢問當地的專業Fitter。

「選車」一直都是非常常見的問題。所以怎麼決定哪台車是最好的?答案簡單明瞭,作Bike Fit。接下來我們來定義什麼是Bike Fitting…

Bike Fit = 在符合騎士的需求下,對騎士和車子的接觸點進行定位以調整騎士跟車子的互動影響。

在此次的討論中,同時牽涉到Bike Sizing跟Fitting。多數有經驗且受過完整訓練的可以提供完整的服務。第一部份會是使用 Fit bike,像是Retul Muve來模擬調整成所選車架的Stack跟Reach數值。

Fit bike可以在短時間內調整成任何車架之幾何,可以同時間對各種不同的車架數值進行測試。所以同樣的也能夠很快的決定騎士所選擇之車架是否適當。市面上的自行車幾何分別極大,有些擁有長的Reach跟低的Stack,反之也有短Reach跟高Stack的幾何存在。

Bike fitter會藉由經驗來決定龍頭長度、墊圈高度、座墊、手把、座桿、曲柄、踏板。當確定了上述細節後,就會開始調整適合騎士的角度設定。不論是動態或是靜態,上述的過程可以使用市面上各種不同的Bike fit器材來決定。拿支尺測量你的各部位長度後將數值輸入進去電腦並不是Bike Fitting。騎士必須要實際騎在車子上,藉由工具、裝備、和Fitter的經驗。最佳的數值決定是建立在雙方的良好溝通上。而我個人相信藉由3D的動態擷取騎士在車上的實際動態是不可或缺的重要環節。一個正確的BIKE FIT 過程大約需時為最少兩個小時。

在經過Bike Fitting後,會將所有數值整理成報告,車店就可以依照這些數值進行組車。一個正確的Bike Fitting至少應該包涵下面步驟以達到符合客戶需求之Fitting結果。

1.面談
2.Fit前評估
3.Fit
4.單車數值測量
5.報告製作
6.追蹤

舉例來說,我們簡短的對Cannondale Supersix Evo 56cm和54cm兩個尺寸進行測試,此外,如果我們發覺Cannondale並不是最適合的車架,我們可以立刻測試其他車架。前述提到「有些擁有長的Reach跟低的Stack,反之也有短Reach跟高Stack的幾何存在。」。以下是各個不同廠商的56cm車架的Stack跟Reach數值,Trek相較起來就有較長的Reach跟較低的Stack。

Cannondale Supersix EVO 54cm - Stack (544) Reach (384)
Cannondale Supersix EVO 56cm - Stack (558) Reach (395)
Specialized Tarmac 56cm - Stack (564) Reach (395)
Trek Madone 7 H1 56cm- Stack (546) Reach (400)
Cervelo S5 56cm - Stack (580) Reach (387)
Pinarello Dogma 65.1 56cm - Stack (569) Reach (391)

在經過上述過程後,客戶會至車店購買選定的車架,並帶回給Fitter進行最後的Fit調整。Bike Fitter應該以客戶的需求為出發點,做出合理的設定結果。

Fitting是我個人認為在騎車上面最應該投資的。買錯車架會是更加昂貴的教訓。還有比你投入一大筆錢之前把所有不同的型號、廠牌跟尺寸都試過一遍更好的方法嗎?

最後,Bike fitter是整個Fitting過程中最重要的一部分,Fitter擁有的經驗以及跟騎士間的溝通是關鍵。工具和設備非常重要,但是也僅只於此,工具和設備不會作Fitting。市面上有非常多種多樣的工具像是XY fit bikes、Angular fit bikes、goniometers、高速攝影機或是3D動作擷取等等。請各位作點相關資料收集,且預祝你的Fit有好結果。記住,最佳的表現建立在合適的Bike fit上,讓你的騎乘有好的效率、避免運動傷害,以及舒適。

騎車跟走路不同,並不是天生具有的直覺反應,而是需要經過學習的運動,這也是為什麼Bike Fitting 如此重要。

我相信買車最好的方式就是先去Fit,投資這個服務會讓你騎的又長又久,祝各位幸運!

Friday BikeFit

___________________________________


I normally do not participate in any forum discussions but I think this is a good opportunity for me to voice my opinion. This is in no way to solicit business of any kind, there are many bike fitters out there and you are free to choose who ever you want. I hope to take this opportunity to educate and give a different perspective on the process of bike fitting and bike sizing. This is merely my personal opinion and you may disagree or agree. These are statements in context to the current technology and market. Bike fitting is as much an art as science and always evolving with research and development. I will not defend nor go into any type of aggressive discussion nor will I give any fitting advice here. For that please visit your local bike professional fitter of your choosing.

Choosing between bikes is a very common situation. So what is the best way to determine what bike is the best? The answer is to do a bike fit. So let’s determine what bike fitting is…

Bike Fit = Positioning contact points of a bike that affects how a rider interacts with the bike, in their chosen discipline.

For this discussion, this process would be a combination of bike sizing and bike fitting. Most experienced and established bike fitters will provide this service. The first part would be the use of a fit bike such as the Retül Müve to model the chosen bikes with the given stack and reach numbers.

The fit bike can be changed to any frame within seconds, essentially testing all the different bikes in one session. This process can be done rather quickly to truly determine if the chosen bikes are appropriate. Bike are made differently, some being long and low while others are tall and short.

Through the experience of the bike fitter we will determine the specifications of stem, spacer stack, saddle, handlebar, seat post, crank set and pedals. After these are specified then the optimum angles, are determined for the rider. This can be done with different bike fitting tools, either through a static or a dynamic bike fitting process. Measuring limbs and inputting in a computer is not a bike fit. The rider must ride the bike and through tools, equipment and fitter’s experience, an optimal position is determined together. I truly believe one must ride the bike and data should be captured while in motion 3 dimensionally to truly assess the rider’s position. A proper bike fit process should take at least 2 hours.

After the bike fitting process a report should be generated with all the coordinates and a bike shop is to use these coordinates to build the bike. A proper bike fitting process should include at least the following steps and can be modified according to customer’s needs.

Interview
Pre-Fit Assessment
Fit
Bike Measurement
Report Generation
Follow Up

So in this particular case we can test out a Cannondale Supersix EVO 56cm and a 54cm very quickly. Moreover, if we realize the Cannondale is not the best frame we can quickly test out other bikes. Remember frames can be long and low or tall and short! For example, as listed below a 56cm frame from different manufacturers can be very different. The Trek being a long and low frame compared to the rest.

Cannondale Supersix EVO 54cm - Stack (544) Reach (384)
Cannondale Supersix EVO 56cm - Stack (558) Reach (395)
Specialized Tarmac 56cm - Stack (564) Reach (395)
Trek Madone 7 H1 56cm- Stack (546) Reach (400)
Cervelo S5 56cm - Stack (580) Reach (387)
Pinarello Dogma 65.1 56cm - Stack (569) Reach (391)

After this process is done the customer will purchase the chosen bike and then return to the bike fitter for a final fit. A bike fitter should be unbiased and truly be doing the fit based on the rider’s requirements.

This process I believe make the most sense before spending money on a bike. It can be a very costly mistake if the wrong bike is purchased. What is more perfect than be able to get fitted on all the different models and sizes of bikes before you spend the big money!?

Lastly, the bike fitter is the most important part of the process, the experience and communication are the keys. While the tools and technology are very important however they are just that, tools and technology, it does not do the bike fit. There are many different tools out there from XY fit bikes, angular fit bikes, goniometers, high speed video capture to 3D motion capture. Please do your research accordingly and good luck with your fit! Remember a proper bike fit is the most important factor for optimal performance, efficiency, injury prevention, and comfort on the bike.

Riding a bike is not a natural instinct like walking but rather a learned action, that’s why bike fitting is important.

I truly believe this the best way to buy a bike. Fit First! Value this service and you will be riding a long time! Good luck!

Friday BikeFit

文章關鍵字
是不是這類文章對於很多人都太生硬了?沒啥反應耶...
阿說好的鋸車架咧?(by 大仙)

Friday Fitness wrote:
響應的文章http:...(恕刪)


我也知道很重要呀
但價格很貴也是不爭的事實
小弟觀念可能不正確,但覺得做這麼專業的事情以後感覺不買個十幾二十萬的車怪怪的
很好的文章 有助我了解呀~~謝了
但我個人認為其實很多車友不是不相信bf
而是如樓上說 真的貴
可能有人認為是貴 但值
但是值還是貴 還有一個財政負擔存在

對我個人而言 bf能降價那普及相信會好一點
我也覺得財力才是重點
預算很高的人
能花個10~20萬在硬體上
相對便宜很多fitting服務
對這些人來說絕對是小事一件

而事實上的情況
窮人佔八九成
不要說10萬
我相信騎入門款2~5萬
中低階車款的休閒騎士一定是多數
真正完整的fitting花費
所佔的比重太大的時候
就是完全不可能投資的一個項目

以我們的所得來看
推廣自行車活動vs推廣bike fitting
不能齊頭並進 也是在常理之中

fitting很重要 大家都知道
大家也都知道shimano一級變速是dura-ace
結果還是選105
為什麼?
啊就沒錢啊
Top-Secret wrote:
我也覺得財力才是重點...(恕刪)
fitting 也可以自己來,雖然比較陽春
就像一件衣服,你可以給店家改,也可以自己改
自己摸索,常常調整,也可以調出 自我感覺良好 的設定
自我感覺良好不見得是貶意,你如果連自己都感覺不良好,那絕對不是個好的 fitting
我來回應一下版主!

我來說說我組車的經驗,我也算是一個新手!
今年初向車店訂了適合我的尺寸的車架,直到五月份車架來了以後,才開始組。
組完以後,再去小樹自轉車做fitting!小樹是國內少數擁有Retul證照的人,店裡面也擁有Retul相關器材!

因為小弟身材比較特殊,我身高177cm ,跨高約78~79cm,但是我小腿長、大腿較短、手臂較長、坐骨較寬,調了二次,換了二個坐墊才算調整好。

幫我做fitting的小樹說,如果我再訂車、零件前有先做fitting,他會建議我適合的車架尺寸、大盤曲柄長、坐墊寬、龍頭長度、把手寬度、踏板等等,先確定適合的尺寸再去做微調最適合!

其實我很認同買車前先做fitting,確認好自己的相關尺寸再去購買零件。而不是一昧在乎零件的好壞,只要fitting微調狀況好,就算是普通的零件也可以享受到騎車的快感!我做一次fitting也才4000~4500元,用最小的金錢可以達到最大的效益,給你參考!
小弟的資訊都是道聽塗說,以及網路分享所來
卻也慢慢集結成一點點小成果,願與樓主一樣跟大家分享,討論
目前已知,比較有規模,或是有深度的Fitting
大約都是新台幣三千元起跳,樓上也有四、五千的
專業品牌或是店家、工作室的,也有一萬、兩萬、N萬的

小弟的看法是,身邊的朋友或車友,有一部分的人,有做等於沒做
原因是,小弟認同樓主的看法,認為這種公路車運動
就是應該要完全符合運動員本身的身體特性,而且要極具精密性
問題來了,如果消費者,心目中,早就選定要買時間牌,要買輕快的速度
要買賊安特,要買歐貝拉了!
Fitting的結果卻顯示,消費者比較適合買可樂果、BH、美利達、淋濕機等牌子的車架
那消費者該如何抉擇?

我看到的是,大多是選自己喜歡的牌子
所以,有Fitting到多精準,也是聊勝於無
假日騎士,簡單作fitting就好,先講求不傷身,再來講求效率吧?


Top-Secret wrote:
我也覺得財力才是重點...(恕刪)


Top大說得真好
我想有認真的騎車的人都知道fitting很重要
能做動態fitting當然更好
剛剛看到小樹fb的定價 Retul 3D要7500
恩 我看還是算了
一台機器說是成本很高 但其實也才50萬 這樣一個客人收7500不會太貴嗎
不過就是有這些設備的店家還太少 才可以這樣壟斷
反正有錢買好車的大咖 當然不會在意這點小錢
這種東西就留給有錢人去享受吧
至於我這種窮人 網路上diy fitting教學看一看
自己調一調 一樣騎得很爽
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