關於韓文、漢字以及語文的一些想法


knah wrote:
你說的其實是我最早的提問,也就是韓國大量放棄使用漢字後,到底對一般生活工作有沒有造成重大影響?現代韓國不論在經濟、科技、文化、娛樂等等方面都表現的相當不錯,所以我很難將你所謂韓國文字系統“失去了必要的信息含量”的結論連接在一起。

“在經濟、科技、文化、娛樂等等方面都表現的相當不錯”跟文字和語言有關係?如果你這麼主張,請先請證明語言易用是經濟、科技、文化、娛樂行業進步的決定性條件。

knah wrote:
此外,你舉的例子並不完整,因為“放水”與“吸水”本來意義就不同。如果當事人連放水與吸水都搞不清楚,我們又如何知道即便是使用漢字,當事人可以分得清防水與放水?誰知道這是不是當事人為了避責而找出來的藉口?

事故的調查結果就是這樣,如果你覺得不是,證明“當事人為了避責而找出來的藉口”而非文字原因造成的溝通問題,舉證責任在你。

knah wrote:
話說回來,如果一個語言有難以區分的同音詞,該做的是放棄其中一個詞彙,而改用其他說法。

正如漢語的字只有幾百個固定的發音,上萬個漢字都限定在這幾百個固定發音上,朝鮮語也差不多,存在大量的同音詞。你覺得放棄一個詞彙改用其他說法就可以?所謂的“其他说法”,也會跟別的含義撞車。這是音節種類和組合變化太少造成的。

你是打算讓朝鮮民族在自造文字之後,再造一種發音不同的新語言嗎?

knah wrote:
你說的情況在任何語言都會發生。如果我沒頭沒尾的隨口說一個英語詞:write,請您把我說的詞寫下來,90%以上概率您是寫不出來的。因為同音詞好幾個。我只說write,您沒法100%確定我說的是write, rite, 還是 right。反之,漢語就不會這樣,我隨便說一個單詞:寫作,您應該不會問,哪個寫作?因為漢語中發這個音的詞僅此一個。
不是說請您先看看之前的討論嗎?英語中的同音詞多了去了,您看這不是鬧笑話了。

英語中像write/rite/right這樣的三個詞同音的情況很多?那麼麻煩你列舉一些來看看啊,不用很多,十幾組就好...

你覺得英語中同音詞多?那麼請問,隨便一本牛津詞典中,幾萬個詞,同音詞能占到百分之幾?有百分之一嗎?

發“寫作”這個音的僅有這一個嗎?“寫做”好像也是這個音。再說,你覺得漢語中隨便抓一個詞,完全找不到同音詞的概率是多少?

既然要辯論,舉的例子應該公允一點才好。明明同音詞在英語中出現的頻率很低,而找不到同音詞的在漢語中較少,被你反過來說,不知道是誰鬧笑話呢?這樣強行偷換概念,不太好吧?

knah wrote:
不管漢語是分析語還是綜合語,既然我們日常可以不靠筆談而使用漢語討論,就代表漢語拼音化絕對可行。...(恕刪)

你叫我“先看看之前的討論”,但看到這裡我發現,很遺憾,你沒看,或者沒看懂我在上一個回答中說的話。

dongmark wrote:
老毛的妥協,也是從當時整個國際蘇維埃的角度去切入了,做了一次互相理解

老蔣是受限於國家實力,,老毛則是受制于戰略理念

無所謂對錯...(恕刪)

蘇聯在瓦解之前,不算核武,傳統軍力一直都是遠遠超過中共的


randerpy wrote:
PS “戰國七雄吳國的吳” 戰國七雄 並沒有吳國 吳國在春秋末期被滅 春秋末戰國初 算是沾到一點邊...(恕刪)


哈哈,我確實打錯了,應該是“春秋戰國的吳國”。
iantsai74 wrote:
“在經濟、科技、文化、娛樂等等方面都表現的相當不錯”跟文字和語言有關係?如果你這麼主張,請先請證明語言易用是經濟、科技、文化、娛樂行業進步的決定性條件。


語言易用當然不是人類生活發展的決定性條件,因為同樣使用韓文,南北韓的發展截然不同。此篇討論的是“漢字使用”是否嚴重影響人類生活發展。從韓國的例子來看,顯然應採否定說。


iantsai74 wrote:
事故的調查結果就是這樣,如果你覺得不是,證明“當事人為了避責而找出來的藉口”而非文字原因造成的溝通問題,舉證責任在你。


看新聞要有自己判斷的能力,否則整天被媒體牽著鼻子走。閣下也還沒回覆,一個懂漢字的正常人怎麼可能將“放水”誤解為“吸水”?

iantsai74 wrote:
正如漢語的字只有幾百個固定的發音,上萬個漢字都限定在這幾百個固定發音上,朝鮮語也差不多,存在大量的同音詞。你覺得放棄一個詞彙改用其他說法就可以?所謂的“其他说法”,也會跟別的含義撞車。這是音節種類和組合變化太少造成的。

你是打算讓朝鮮民族在自造文字之後,再造一種發音不同的新語言嗎?


這又回到之前一再提到的問題。不論漢語的同音詞有多少,如果我們日常可以不靠筆談而進行交流,則代表拼音化絕對可行。漢語的同音字很多,但是同音詞相對少的多。就以閣下的這句話來分析吧:


“正如漢語的字只有幾百個固定的發音,上萬個漢字都限定在這幾百個固定發音上,朝鮮語也差不多,存在大量的同音詞。”

這裡面每一個字幾乎都有不少的同音字,但是當它轉變為詞彙後,幾乎都沒有不同意義的同音詞:

“正如”、“漢語”、“只有”、“幾百個”、“固定”、“發音”、“上萬個”、“漢字”、“限定”、“在這”、“朝鮮語”、“差不多”、“存在”、“大量”、“同音詞”

這也是為什麼我認為真正的中文是詞彙(或詞句)構成,而非個別的漢字。



iantsai74 wrote:
英語中像write/rite/right這樣的三個詞同音的情況很多?那麼麻煩你列舉一些來看看啊,不用很多,十幾組就好...

你覺得英語中同音詞多?那麼請問,隨便一本牛津詞典中,幾萬個詞,同音詞能占到百分之幾?有百分之一嗎?

發“寫作”這個音的僅有這一個嗎?“寫做”好像也是這個音。再說,你覺得漢語中隨便抓一個詞,完全找不到同音詞的概率是多少?

既然要辯論,舉的例子應該公允一點才好。明明同音詞在英語中出現的頻率很低,而找不到同音詞的在漢語中較少,被你反過來說,不知道是誰鬧笑話呢?這樣強行偷換概念,不太好吧?



我在第71樓已經列了幾組英文同音詞,要列幾百組也沒問題:


accessary, accessory
ad, add
ail, ale
air, heir
aisle, I'll, isle
all, awl
allowed, aloud
alms, arms
altar, alter
arc, ark
aren't, aunt
ate, eight
auger, augur
auk, orc
aural, oral
away, aweigh
awe, oar, or, ore
axel, axle
aye, eye, I
bail, bale
bait, bate
baize, bays
bald, bawled
ball, bawl
band, banned
bard, barred
bare, bear
bark, barque
baron, barren
base, bass
bay, bey
bazaar, bizarre
be, bee
beach, beech
bean, been
beat, beet
beau, bow
beer, bier
bel, bell, belle
berry, bury
berth, birth
bight, bite, byte
billed, build
bitten, bittern
blew, blue
bloc, block
boar, bore
board, bored
boarder, border
bold, bowled
boos, booze
born, borne
bough, bow
boy, buoy
brae, bray
braid, brayed
braise, brays, braze
brake, break
bread, bred
brews, bruise
bridal, bridle
broach, brooch
bur, burr
but, butt
buy, by, bye
buyer, byre
calendar, calender
call, caul
canvas, canvass
cast, caste
caster, castor
caught, court
caw, core, corps
cede, seed
ceiling, sealing
cell, sell
censer, censor, sensor
cent, scent, sent
cereal, serial
cheap, cheep
check, cheque
choir, quire
chord, cord
cite, sight, site
clack, claque
clew, clue
climb, clime
close, cloze
coal, kohl
coarse, course
coign, coin
colonel, kernel
complacent, complaisant
complement, compliment
coo, coup
cops, copse
council, counsel
cousin, cozen
creak, creek
crews, cruise
cue, kyu, queue
curb, kerb
currant, current
cymbol, symbol
dam, damn
days, daze
dear, deer
descent, dissent
desert, dessert
deviser, divisor
dew, due
die, dye
discreet, discrete
doe, doh, dough
done, dun
douse, dowse
draft, draught
dual, duel
earn, urn
eery, eyrie
ewe, yew, you
faint, feint
fah, far
fair, fare
farther, father
fate, fête
faun, fawn
fay, fey
faze, phase
feat, feet
ferrule, ferule
few, phew
fie, phi
file, phial
find, fined
fir, fur
fizz, phiz
flair, flare
flaw, floor
flea, flee
flex, flecks
flew, flu, flue
floe, flow
flour, flower
foaled, fold
for, fore, four
foreword, forward
fort, fought
forth, fourth
foul, fowl
franc, frank
freeze, frieze
friar, fryer
furs, furze
gait, gate
galipot, gallipot
gallop, galop
gamble, gambol
gays, gaze
genes, jeans
gild, guild
gilt, guilt
giro, gyro
gnaw, nor
gneiss, nice
gorilla, guerilla
grate, great
greave, grieve
greys, graze
grisly, grizzly
groan, grown
guessed, guest
hail, hale
hair, hare
hall, haul
hangar, hanger
hart, heart
haw, hoar, whore
hay, hey
heal, heel, he'll
hear, here
heard, herd
he'd, heed
heroin, heroine
hew, hue
hi, high
higher, hire
him, hymn
ho, hoe
hoard, horde
hoarse, horse
holey, holy, wholly
hour, our
idle, idol
in, inn
indict, indite
it's, its
jewel, joule
key, quay
knave, nave
knead, need
knew, new
knight, night
knit, nit
knob, nob
knock, nock
knot, not
know, no
knows, nose
laager, lager
lac, lack
lade, laid
lain, lane
lam, lamb
laps, lapse
larva, lava
lase, laze
law, lore
lay, ley
lea, lee
leach, leech
lead, led
leak, leek
lean, lien
lessen, lesson
levee, levy
liar, lyre
licence, license
licker, liquor
lie, lye
lieu, loo
links, lynx
lo, low
load, lode
loan, lone
locks, lox
loop, loupe
loot, lute
made, maid
mail, male
main, mane
maize, maze
mall, maul
manna, manner
mantel, mantle
mare, mayor
mark, marque
marshal, martial
marten, martin
mask, masque
maw, more
me, mi
mean, mien
meat, meet, mete
medal, meddle
metal, mettle
meter, metre
might, mite
miner, minor, mynah
mind, mined
missed, mist
moat, mote
mode, mowed
moor, more
moose, mousse
morning, mourning
muscle, mussel
naval, navel
nay, neigh
nigh, nye
none, nun
od, odd
ode, owed
oh, owe
one, won
packed, pact
packs, pax
pail, pale
pain, pane
pair, pare, pear
palate, palette, pallet
pascal, paschal
paten, patten, pattern
pause, paws, pores, pours
pawn, porn
pea, pee
peace, piece
peak, peek, peke, pique
peal, peel
pearl, purl
pedal, peddle
peer, pier
pi, pie
pica, pika
place, plaice
plain, plane
pleas, please
plum, plumb
pole, poll
poof, pouffe
practice, practise
praise, prays, preys
principal, principle
profit, prophet
quarts, quartz
quean, queen
rain, reign, rein
raise, rays, raze
rap, wrap
raw, roar
read, reed
read, red
real, reel
reek, wreak
rest, wrest
retch, wretch
review, revue
rheum, room
right, rite, wright, write
ring, wring
road, rode
roe, row
role, roll
roo, roux, rue
rood, rude
root, route
rose, rows
rota, rotor
rote, wrote
rough, ruff
rouse, rows
rung, wrung
rye, wry
saver, savour
spade, spayed
sale, sail
sane, seine
satire, satyr
sauce, source
saw, soar, sore
scene, seen
scull, skull
sea, see
seam, seem
sear, seer, sere
seas, sees, seize
sew, so, sow
shake, sheikh
shear, sheer
shoe, shoo
sic, sick
side, sighed
sign, sine
sink, synch
slay, sleigh
sloe, slow
sole, soul
some, sum
son, sun
sort, sought
spa, spar
staid, stayed
stair, stare
stake, steak
stalk, stork
stationary, stationery
steal, steel
stile, style
storey, story
straight, strait
sweet, suite
swat, swot
tacks, tax
tale, tail
talk, torque
tare, tear
taught, taut, tort
te, tea, tee
team, teem
tear, tier
teas, tease
terce, terse
tern, turn
there, their, they're
threw, through
throes, throws
throne, thrown
thyme, time
tic, tick
tide, tied
tire, tyre
to, too, two
toad, toed, towed
told, tolled
tole, toll
ton, tun
tor, tore
tough, tuff
troop, troupe
tuba, tuber
vain, vane, vein
vale, veil
vial, vile
wail, wale, whale
wain, wane
waist, waste
wait, weight
waive, wave
wall, waul
war, wore
ware, wear, where
warn, worn
wart, wort
watt, what
wax, whacks
way, weigh, whey
we, wee, whee
weak, week
we'd, weed
weal, we'll, wheel
wean, ween
weather, whether
weaver, weever
weir, we're
were, whirr
wet, whet
wheald, wheeled
which, witch
whig, wig
while, wile
whine, wine
whirl, whorl
whirled, world
whit, wit
white, wight
who's, whose
woe, whoa
wood, would
yaw, yore, your, you're
yoke, yolk
you'll, yule





knah wrote:
這也是為什麼我認為真正的中文是詞彙(或詞句)構成,而非個別的漢字。...(恕刪)

+1

以現代中文來說 (特別是國語),中文是詞彙所構成

文言文才是個別的漢字組成

knah wrote:
語言易用當然不是人...(恕刪)


列的那些同音字根據英文文法

有什麼機會能碰在一起?
knah wrote:
我在第71樓已經列了幾組英文同音詞,要列幾百組也沒問題:...(恕刪)

這不就是在狡辯嗎?你說要列幾百個沒問題,但你列的這400多個,已經是英文中幾乎全部同音詞了吧?說的好像是你隨手列出來的,只要願意還能隨手再列幾百個一樣...

就算能找出幾百個同音詞,對於英語幾十萬個單詞的詞彙總量而言,同音詞的出現頻率連0.1%都還不到。你自己說一下漢語中同音詞出現的頻率是多少?
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